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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
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Posted - 2012.06.26 06:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Jason Marshall wrote:
Its not that I automatically assume the volunteers aren't genuinely interested in helping. Its that I know for everyone of that type their are 100 more who just want the power. Everything you have linked regarding CCP policies I have read the devblog for (most for the second time has I read them when they were originally posted). You cannot convince me that all of the current moderators are genuine nor experienced eve players and longtime community members if all I have to go on is the last month or so of their moderation. Its just such a change from the norm. I want to get confirmation that they are following guidelines and defentions outlined by CCP. Their is no harm in posting the guidelines and definitions the volunteers have to follow. But im not convinced their are any. This thread not being locked is a case in point, the currently active mods are fine with it but Sten and that other guy from earlier would have had it locked 7 pages ago.
I can understand why you would want to have the guidelines published, but as with many things in EVE, if they were to publish them, people would abuse them and attempt to find loopholes, which in turn would just create more spam and less actual content. As for the experience and background of the ISD members, CCP state more than once that the basic requirements are just that, basic. If you honestly believe that they will hire just anyone, then perhaps you do not know them as well as you claim to. I cannot, and will not enter in to an argument as to the level of experience that each and every ISD member has, but I have enough faith in CCP to feel safe in the knowledge that the people they take on to perform these tasks are up to the job. Do not allow personal bias, infantile rhetoric from others, or a feeling of self entitlement to cloud your judgement, it serves only to make you look foolish. You do not strike me as a fool, merely someone caught up in the flood of silliness unleashed by other less informed individuals, and do not forget that some people who may appear supportive have a pre-existing axe to grind and will only be around for as long as it suits their purpose. What I guess I'm saying is don't be a sheep, follow the facts, use good judgement and you will do just fine.
"I can understand why you would want to have the guidelines published, but as with many things in EVE, if they were to publish them, people would abuse them and attempt to find loopholes, which in turn would just create more spam and less actual content. "
Its that exact reason why I dont take blind faith that volunteers are volunteering for the right reasons. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
0
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Posted - 2012.06.26 06:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Jason Auralis wrote: "I can understand why you would want to have the guidelines published, but as with many things in EVE, if they were to publish them, people would abuse them and attempt to find loopholes, which in turn would just create more spam and less actual content. "
Its that exact reason why I dont take blind faith that volunteers are volunteering for the right reasons.
Wait, sorry, have to respond to this before I get some sleep. You are saying you doubt the Volunteers motivations, because CCP won't tell you what guidelines ISD staff have to follow? That makes no sense, at all. And I have to sleep now. Pesky, keep an eye on them.
No, I'm saying I doubt their motivations because they are eve players.
And telling us what the guidelines were would go a long ways in reassuring people that they were doing their job right because we could call them on it. The whole point of moderators is to enforce rules.
Someone trying to get around something in the guidelines based on what he or she read of the guidelines would still end up with a locked post or punishment because moderators not being mindless computers are able to read into context and can see this going on. I have faith in volunteers to be intelegent and honest enough, But this is the eve-community going to need more than what we have to go on right now. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
0
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Posted - 2012.06.26 08:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
ISD Athechu wrote:Greetings, IGÇÖm Athechu a Commander (Assistant Team Lead) of ISD:STAR (In-game ISD). I am currently also helping out the ISD:CCL with the forums but I focus mainly on the EVE New Citizens Q&A section of the forums. First please visit the ISD Wiki page and understand the differences of the teams. It will explain a lot more of what the teams within the ISD do. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISDReading through this thread and watching I see that that both sides have made mistakes. Posters that delibertly started to create spam/troll/argue threads in the forum and ISD members for not explaining which rules have been broken. Now the focus has been shifted to the ISD as being some kind of supreme evil overlords. We are players of the same game as you and we enjoy it like you. The difference is that we have decided to contribute our time to the community that makes EVE so great. CCPGÇÖs Internal Affairs team watches over not only the ISD accounts but our player account(s) as well. If an individual of the ISD is found abusing their volunteer position CCP will take the appropriate actions. No ISD team has the ability to ban anyone from any server, or forum. But just like you we do have the ability to report problems to the appropriate people using the same methods. CCP internal teams handle all of that. If you have a reasonable suspicion that an ISD member is abusing his/her position in some way in the game, you can contact Internal Affairs directly by sending an e-mail to [email protected] or file a petition using the methods below (only choose one method). In game: Press F12, click create new petition, Group: Rules and Policies, Category: Game Masters & ISD Out of game: https://support.eveonline.com/Pages/Petitions/CreatePetition.aspxPlease remember to include forum links and a name of who you are reporting. This helps in insuring a timely investigation. Fly safe!
I appreciate you making a statement. Forgive me if I cant take what you have said blindly. While I believe you are monitored by employees of CCP I dont believe its nearly has involved has it should be. Their have been problems on going since the CCL started and it is time that CCP address them and tell us if they are problems in their eyes or not.
I love everybut ISD has done over the years. Up until the CCL and the few bad eggs with the game evens awhile back I had nothing bad to say about the organization. We just want a more transparent and involved selection process for the moderators and for the guidelines they moderate by to be published by CCP so we know what they want out of the forums and the moderators have something that can keep them consistent with their moderation.
So, thank you. But, I think this isn't going to settle down till we have a Dev come in, or at the very least the CSM promise to look into it.
Regards, Jason Marshall |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
0
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Posted - 2012.06.26 08:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
ISD Athechu wrote:
I am aware as I have been watching this all day long. We have followed our procedures and all I'm asking is that if you have a problem with a specific ISD member is not to get outraged and spam the forums causing more work for us and making you* look like the bad guy. But follow the procedure that I just gave you. If someone in-game has a problem with the way a STAR moderates they get the same line.
Our issue isnt with one person its with the CCL has a whole. Its broken and we need to fix it now before it grows into the system any further.
- Jason Marshall |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
0
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Posted - 2012.06.26 08:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:isn t this a bit over the top just about every large gaming company is using volunteers to moderate their forums
Just give them a chance to proof that they are capable of moderating these forums in a fair and neutral way
We have. They have been found un-able.
Someone pay Dark Shikari to come back and moderate. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
0
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Posted - 2012.06.26 08:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:pussnheels wrote:isn t this a bit over the top just about every large gaming company is using volunteers to moderate their forums
Just give them a chance to proof that they are capable of moderating these forums in a fair and neutral way Yes, but I've seen it done a lot better than this. They can "proof" (sic) what they like but the last 12 hours was appalling.
The last twelve hours was alot of people unable to stay silent about their displeasure with the new system. We say back and watched for a bit and decided we needed to get CCP aware of problems with the system. Something that wouldn't have happened if we had just all sent in our own petitions because CCP wont discuss petitions. And this is something that needs to be discussed. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
0
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Posted - 2012.06.26 08:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Alaya Carrier wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Alaya Carrier wrote:I am all for taming this forum till it becomes a regular MMO forum and not a crazy land where obsessed psychos explode all their repression and immature rants because they know that there will never be *consequences* for their actions.
In the other forums this is easily accomplished by banning all the offenders and letting them cool off.
I really hope CCP doesn't listen to you. The EvE-O forums have always been better than most because of the open discussion that was possible. Excessive moderation and bans have a chilling effect on those sorts of (spectacularly productive, thoug not too polite) discussions. Just the very fact you are circumventing a ban would you get all your accounts perma banned in most other MMOS. This happens expecially in strongly organization structured MMOs of course. Maybe it's time CCP starts a stronger approach both against cheaters and forum specialized trolls. There are at least two "alternative" EvE forums, people should feel free to go sperg over there.
Ok, I generally don't comment on peoples spelling and grammar. I believe you can have very valid and relevant posts without having perfect spelling and grammar. But I dont think you quite phrased what you meant in the right way with "This happens expecially in strongly organization structured MMOs of course."
Thats fine I think I got the gist of it though.
Alot of us have expressed that if CCP really intends to have a more rigid none creative forum then thats fine. We would respect that. But we want that in CCP writing before we stop fighting for the community hub we have know and loved for almost a decade now.
Also, their are trolls on both sides of this. Its not trolls versus ISD on this one. Its people who know the system one way and have seen a drastic change in how that system is being moderated versus the people who want a more WoW like forum.
Also you clearly don't care very much for this issue, you aren't even posting on your main. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
0
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Posted - 2012.06.26 08:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
ISD Athechu wrote:Pipa Porto - Great post I will make sure the CCL Leads/CCL Team sees it. Graic Gabtar wrote:ISD Athechu wrote:1) Petitions cannot be discussed on the forums per CCP Forum Rules (Rule 9)...
Please note I am not an officer of ISD:CCL... Sorry but I don't think you are doing much but validate our perceptions of the ISD to be frank. To be frank as well my job isn't to change your perception. All I'm doing is stating how to go about properly reporting something if you happen to disagree with it. Create one thread with specific issues that the community has. I can point you to https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96986 that was brought up to a STAR Lead who answered the question and it was left at that. There was no mass uprising or anything of that nature.
Please make sure it also lands on the CCP employee's desk that directly oversees them.
All of ISD has done a great job over the years we would like you to keep on doing the good work! Its the new group we are having problems with. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
0
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Posted - 2012.06.26 09:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bruce Wie wrote:wait you havent been inappropriately moved or locked wow
Yeah someone came along and cleaned the thread nicely. I believe it was the German Community Manager. Seems to be the only active one that might have the necessary privileges. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
0
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Posted - 2012.06.26 09:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Yes we have rules. But you cant have a group of moderators enforcing rules if they don't all interpret them the same way. A forum this large with so many varied ideas and just posts needs to have some guidelines for the moderators. Alot of very unique and impressive things have come from ideas posted on these forums that would have been locked by the CCL has trolls or spam. The original ISS proposition would have been locked within an hour. Most all of the first IPOs would have been seen has trolling because they were so outside the norm of what had been done in eve up until then. Hell BIG Lottos OP probably would have gotten a spam lock.
You cant strangle moderate these forums if you don't want them to turn out like every other MMO community out their. Imagine all the future marketing materials you could be losing CCP?
CCP Phantom wrote:While forum moderation discussions as per our forum rules not allowed on our forums, we of course allow and welcome constructive feedback and suggestions of how to improve our CCL program. Forum moderation discussion for example would be discussing why a thread was locked, why a post was edited or why some moderator performed a specific action etc. If you have questions about specific moderation actions, the only proper way for asking questions is to file a petition. Constructive feedback in general would include suggestions on how to improve the CCL in general without pointing to specific moderation actions or moderators. Our goal is to provide a warm, friendly atmosphere for the EVE community on our forums and we are constantly working towards this goal - even though we sometimes have to work a little harder
In this situation we cant discuss whats wrong or give examples of why something needs to change without referring to specific moderation. Its why what happened happened. We cant use the petition system because their is no visibility so it boils down to being one person getting a response that usually just boiled down to a link pointed at the ISD Wiki page. |
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Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
0
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Posted - 2012.06.26 10:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Putting volunteers whom you select from the community between yourself and the community with no real notice has to your selection ideologies makes for alot of questions about those volunteers and what their real purpose is. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
1
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Posted - 2012.06.26 10:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Jason Auralis wrote:Putting volunteers whom you select from the community between yourself and the community with no real notice has to your selection ideologies makes for alot of questions about those volunteers and what their real purpose is. Jesus dude. I know it's EvE and all, but are you suggesting these guys are infiltrating the ISD and planning to take over EvE-O? Now that I think about it, it sounds like something the Goons would do. You may be onto something here.
Its funny how they keep reiterating that they are eve-players. Like that should make us all feel better given then lack of anything beyond basic requirements and a few paragraphs in a wiki. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
2
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Posted - 2012.06.26 14:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Can we at least make it through one thread about CCP censorship and the moderators program without bickering at each other?
I asked people to keep their bulls in the pens. Fragile state this place is in. =\ |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
2
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Posted - 2012.06.26 14:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
Stop arguing about your argument and get back to discussing ISD. |
Jason Auralis
Maximum Technologies
2
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Posted - 2012.06.26 14:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Jason Auralis wrote:Stop arguing about your argument and get back to discussing ISD. I think you'll find I've done plenty of that in this thread. Read back.
Ok. So stop when you reach the point where your done talking about the topic. |
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